radiantkd: | Hi everyone |
| Jenny: | Hello! |
| diana: | Hi |
| Heidi: | hi there. :) |
| Selena: | Hello! |
| jo: | Evening |
radiantkd: | hi everyone |
radiantkd: | lovely to see you |
| mel: | hello Kathleen and everyone |
| Heidi: | lovely to see you as well! :) |
radiantkd: | is everyone out playing? |
| mel: | probably it's been so lovely today |
| Heidi: | maybe, it's still light out here!! |
radiantkd: | that is nice |
| Selena: | sun and blue skies! |
| Heidi: | it's been a gorgeous few weeks. |
radiantkd: | oh my how wonderful for you |
| Heidi: | makes me want to stay |
| Heidi: | :) |
| Karen F: | Hello :) |
| Outi: | Hi :) |
| Selena: | it's meant to rain on Friday though |
| Heidi: | I'm only here for a few minutes. I have to get to bed early tonight, but wanted to touch noses with everyone for a bit. Just wanted you to know I'll be sneaking out eventually. |
| Heidi: | I saw that Selena. |
| Heidi: | But am keeping up hope that it will hold off until later in the day. |
radiantkd: | so would you all like to speak about the newsletter article? |
| Selena: | sure would! |
| diana: | yes please |
| Jenny: | yes please |
radiantkd: | entitlement and blame |
| Heidi: | yes, blame and entitlement is one of my fav topics! |
radiantkd: | one of my favorites |
| Heidi: | snap |
| mel: | oh yes |
| jo: | yes |
radiantkd: | step 7 is about a state of being rather than a destination |
| mel: | I remember the first time I heard about this! |
| Heidi: | The change is amazing |
radiantkd: | do you have a sense of how it changes? |
| Selena: | growing into the 'you' that is underneath, taking responsibility |
radiantkd: | and it is the same biochemistry that allows us not to be defensive |
| mel: | well in terms of journey rather than destination? |
| Heidi: | well for me, I was able to see that not everything was someone else's fault. I have a role. And I can now figure out what my role is in things and move from that space rather than blaming everyone or feeling like I am entitled to something. |
| mel: | for me that's not wanting to get there so as I can stop the necessary corrective action and get back into using |
radiantkd: | I think a lot of us thought it was someone else's fault |
radiantkd: | and didn't think about my part |
| Selena: | totally lol |
| mel: | i didn't think the big picture was, just all the details! |
| Heidi: | right. |
radiantkd: | what impact does my behavior have in this situation |
| Outi: | and it didn't help *knowing* it wasn't someone else's fault, when it still sure felt like it! |
| Heidi: | I think for me a lot of step seven has been about the ability to stop and think instead of reacting. |
| mel: | never saw it I was always right and could justify |
| Heidi: | figuring out my part. figuring out what I'm really responsible for and what I can actually change. figuring out where I can be flexible, etc. |
| diana: | stop and breathe before saying something |
radiantkd: | I learned a trick that helped me with this one |
radiantkd: | when you are in a death battle over being right |
radiantkd: | ALWAYS assume that there is some truth to the other person's position even if you KNOW you are right |
| mel: | being absolutely right was all I was interested in |
radiantkd: | maybe it is only 5% |
radiantkd: | LOL, I suspect we all know that |
radiantkd: | but it sure kept me stuck |
| mel: | yes, even the fact they believe in it counts for something |
| Heidi: | interesting point, Mel! |
| diana: | ask myself how important is it? |
| Heidi: | if I allow them to be even a little right, it sure does take the death battle out of it, doesn't it? |
| mel: | I remember being genuinely astonished when I found out something I had held true was definitely incorrect |
| Outi: | say sorry for your 5% first, then the other one is more willing to say sorry for his part |
| Heidi: | I don't mean allow them…I mean allow myself to believe that they are even a little right |
radiantkd: | well, if I am willing to entertain that there might be some right in there, then I can listen |
radiantkd: | and if I listen I can hear their position |
| mel: | yes Heidi I got it and agree it takes the sting of pride out |
radiantkd: | now, there is one dilemma with this skill |
radiantkd: | sometimes if you are talking with someone who won't budge |
radiantkd: | and you will, then you end up being blamed |
| Outi: | yes I've had that |
| Outi: | ended badly |
| Selena: | I know that one |
radiantkd: | it enrages me, LOLOL |
| Heidi: | I live with a lawyer, lol. I've definitely had that. |
| mel: | it makes me feel false in a way too |
radiantkd: | some people are trained to never, ever admit to doing anything wrong |
radiantkd: | ever |
| Selena: | that is true |
| Outi: | and are happy when you admit even a little |
radiantkd: | the idea of taking personal responsibility is an alien one |
| Heidi: | yes, I am also dealing with someone like that in my life. it is hard. |
| Outi: | then they can put all the blame on you |
radiantkd: | it is impossible in recovery |
radiantkd: | I left a relationship over that particular issue LOL |
radiantkd: | I can work out anything with someone who will accept personal responsibility |
| Heidi: | well, I have basically left this relationship for the time being because there is no budging. It may not be that way forever though, so we'll see. I'm taking care of myself. and that feels good. |
| mel: | I know plenty who won't |
radiantkd: | recovery has problems LOL |
| mel: | or can't it's a fear thing really isn't it? |
| Heidi: | LOLOLOL |
| Heidi: | for the other guy!!! |
| mel: | Ha how true! |
radiantkd: | well, for me it created a different standard |
radiantkd: | of what I would put up with |
| Heidi: | right. |
radiantkd: | I just avoid people who are like that now |
| Selena: | :) |
| jo: | I do too |
| Outi: | me too |
| Heidi: | I do too, even family lately, LOL! |
| Heidi: | It's too much work! |
| Heidi: | and I won't play along |
| Outi: | I'm somehow amazed that so many have had the same problem |
| Outi: | I guess I thought it was just me :) |
| Heidi: | There are so many good things in my life to put energy into that reward and fulfill me. I don't have time for all that mucky stuff now. :) recovery is awesome |
| Heidi: | and with that, I'm off to bed. will def read the transcript. :) enjoy the rest of the evening, all. night |
radiantkd: | to go back to entitlement and *blame* |
radiantkd: | so blame is a marker for people who are not in recovery |
| mel: | right |
radiantkd: | it tells us how far someone is in the process |
| Selena: | yes |
radiantkd: | so if someone tells me they are on step 7 but....they blame |
radiantkd: | I know they are not LOL |
radiantkd: | it is the single biggest marker |
| Jenny: | that's interesting, I never thought about it like that before |
| Outi: | I guess self-blame counts also? |
| mel: | gosh yes |
radiantkd: | yes, Outi |
radiantkd: | people on step 7 do not stay victims |
| Selena: | I don't think I've been on step 7 for as long as I thought lol |
radiantkd: | now the other side is entitlement |
radiantkd: | Selena, it is a growing energetic |
radiantkd: | do you all know what entitlement is? |
| Outi: | yes |
| Jenny: | yes |
| jo: | yes |
| Selena: | yes |
| mel: | yes |
radiantkd: | well, LOL, can you tell me? |
| mel: | I feel I should be compensated and given things like benefits and freebies |
| mel: | like I have earned them or am owed by the world |
| Selena: | you owe me something |
| Outi: | feeling entitled to do stuff to others, to treat them how you wish |
| diana: | when you feel someone or something owes you something |
| Outi: | show your anger in a bad way |
radiantkd: | Outi, more *I deserve this* |
| Outi: | yes, I meant, because the other one *made* me feel this way, he deserves this! |
radiantkd: | I have never thought of it that way |
| Outi: | like, I have the *right* to be nasty |
radiantkd: | yes |
radiantkd: | that would be true |
radiantkd: | LOL I guess I didn't get it right away since I don't usually do *nasty* ROOFTOP |
radiantkd: | I usually am too nice |
| Outi: | lol, me neither, but there was a time I got lots of that |
| mel: | me too but I know I did mete out punishments |
| Outi: | My way was to cry, and I was entitled to lots of soothing and pity |
radiantkd: | LOL I am a Sagittarius, I don't think we think about retribution |
| Jenny: | lol I'm a Sagittarius too, and I definitely think about retribution |
| mel: | actually I did feel entitled never thought of it like that |
radiantkd: | entitlement always surprises me |
| diana: | I was entitled to resentment |
radiantkd: | like when someone says I *deserve* things for free because I am poor |
| Jenny: | it's not fair, my life is crap so you all have to be nice to me because I deserve it |
radiantkd: | or I deserve your things because I don't have them |
radiantkd: | right, Jenny |
| mel: | I always felt guilted by these whether material or emotional |
| Outi: | Mel, you mean when others say that to you? |
| mel: | yes, like I am too lucky and should give them my happiness or stuff |
| Outi: | ah ok |
radiantkd: | I had an interesting experience with this - the guilt thing |
radiantkd: | we aren't *lucky* |
radiantkd: | I was thinking about having a house |
radiantkd: | the reason I have a house is that I pay a mortgage and insurance and I take care of it |
radiantkd: | every month, I put out $1000 dollars or so |
radiantkd: | that isn't *luck* |
radiantkd: | it was a fascinating insight |
radiantkd: | sort of claiming my working hard |
radiantkd: | claiming an abundance that I earned |
radiantkd: | I think it is part of recovery |
radiantkd: | to say that it is all right to *claim* |
radiantkd: | do you know what I mean? |
| diana: | Yes |
| gretel: | absolutely |
| jo: | yes |
radiantkd: | it took a long time |
| Selena: | yes - you worked hard, it wasn't just luck |
| gretel: | yes, and I used to get feelings of guilt that I have what I have but don't 'work' to contribute financially anymore. But I do 'work' at the partnership which supports that |
| Selena: | same here, Gretel |
radiantkd: | I wonder if a lot of women feel this |
| Jenny: | I certainly do, because I feel like I really don't contribute anything at all |
| mel: | I think so because I refused to not work |
| gretel: | yes, Mel, I felt that way for a long time too |
radiantkd: | I think this is the opposite of entitlement |
| gretel: | pride in reverse |
| mel: | oh yes |
radiantkd: | not seeing that who you are is worth anything |
| gretel: | right |
radiantkd: | that relationship is partnership |
| Outi: | self-sacrificing? |
| mel: | feeling like a fraud |
radiantkd: | I hear so many women think they don't *contribute* because they are not earning *money* |
| mel: | already I conned some poor mug [large corporation or whatever] into paying me! |
| mel: | at least that is recognized as having some value |
radiantkd: | whew, I am sorry we got to this 2 min before the hour |
radiantkd: | what an interesting concept |
| Selena: | I can totally relate though |
| gretel: | yes, and I think we have let women's lib play into this :( |
| Outi: | Gretel, I agree |
| Jenny: | yes, it's like by not working or raising children I am letting other women down |
| Outi: | I felt like I was letting other women down by choosing to stay home and raise my son, some years ago |
radiantkd: | ok, I am quivering |
| Outi: | here you're supposed to put your kids to kindergarten |
radiantkd: | let me think about how to bring this up again |
| Selena: | I'd love to talk about it again |
radiantkd: | we are going to need to stop |
| jo: | thanks kd, night all |
| gretel: | thank you all |
| Jenny: | it would be good to talk about this some more at some point |
| diana: | G'night |
| Selena: | thank you!!! |
| Jenny: | thank you all, it's been interesting |
| Karen F: | Goodnight |
| Outi: | thank you, night! |
| mel: | goodnight all and thanks |